On Guinness

[deza]

I don't think there's any question that I absolutely adore my pupperboy. Even when he's aggravating the hell out of me, he's still my furbaby. He is my constant companion and emotional support, particularly on the really bad days. I truly believe he's kept me out of the hospital, helping to regulate my body temperature when I've had some bad methotrexate reactions.

A few months ago, a young friend of ours came to visit Rowan for a week or so. While she was here, Guinness snapped at her. She wasn't hurt, thank heavens, and since I didn't see it I just assumed she'd somehow provoked it and left it at that. H, I'm sorry I didn't believe you.

When my friend Cat stopped byon her way home from the Frozen North, she started playing with Guinness. He was loving it, playing right along, all his body language in full PLAY mode - until he bit her three times in quick succession on the wrist. He didn't draw blood, but he did break skin and left some pretty severe bruising. Immediately afterward he was slightly disoriented, but ready to go right back to playing. Both Andrew and I saw this, and neither of us could have predicted it.

One afternoon Kyle and Guinness were laying in bed with me watching tv. This is actually pretty much a daily thing. Kyle drapes himself over Guinness, Guinness washes his face, and everyone is happy. Except for the one time Guinness snapped at Kyle instead of washing his face, leaving a faint bruise that stretched from his eye to the bottom of his ear. Again, Guinness seemed disoriented afterward, and went back to normal behavior as if nothing happened.

One of Rowan's friends was over a few weeks ago. She was sitting on the sofa watching tv - I didn't see this one, but Andrew was there. The dog was on the sofa next to her, and she was stroking his head. Again, something that's happened many times before. Guinness lunged for her, and Andrew blocked him. Thank heaven she wasn't hurt.

These things are happening without warning. Guinness isn't being provoked, an he doesn't seem to remember it after it happens. He's confused about why he's suddenly being punished. I spoke with a behaviorist about this. He said that just from what I was describing, it sounds like a form of epileptic seizure commonly called "rage syndrome." Medications may help control it, but there are no guarantees.

We'll take him to the vet of course, once Andrew has some time, but if the base vet determines Guinness to be a dangerous dog then he will recommend immediate euthanasia. No matter what, with a disorder like this he obviously can't be trusted to be my service dog. I'm not comofrtable trusting him around my kids, either. All it would take is hurting one neighborhood kid, and he'd be slated for immediate destruction - not to mention how civil amd moral liabilities for having a dangerous dog.

Dealing with this has not been good for me. I have enough drama without wrestling on whether or not we have to put down our much-loved family dog. Would nyone here care to adopt a very sweet Dobie mix, in the hopes that the meds will work? I think it would be best if he were in a home with dog people, and no parade of neighborhood kids visiting every day.

Comments

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

Oh no. How awful for you. Having faced a similar decision myself recently, my heart really goes out to you.

I'm so, so sorry for all of you, including Guinness.

[libwitch.livejournal.com]

I know with Dobies, a potential issue is that their skull vs brain size can actually be a problem, and that can cause moments of aggression, personality issues, etc. My father used to see it occasionally with otherwise wonderful dogs when he worked with them often. I hope that is not the case and you can reach a happy conclusion.

[norda.livejournal.com]

My heart hurts for all of you to read this.

Hoping for a happy outcome for Guinness, but I know this must be taering your insides.

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

Spot had a thyroid disorder that caused similar behavior. It was treatable with drugs. Is he losing any hair?

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Find a trainer. NOW. Speak to your vet. IMMEDIATELY.

You made a big mistake: ignoring danger signs. Danger sign? Hell, huge red flag: he bit someone. You ignored it, figuring it was "provoked."

That was STUPID of you. Stupid and selfish. Bad owner, no cookie.

M, why do you think dogs generally bite? Provocation? Rage? Please tell me you're not one of those dog owners who thinks dogs are HUMAN, and think like human react out of the same stimuli that humans do.

I am NOT an animal behaviorist. However: I've had to deal with a dog behaving *exactly* as you describe Guinness here. Toward my daughter. You know what? The owner, who I was dating at the time, was a dumbass who assumed my daughter "provoked" the biting, and refused to accept that the issue was his dumbassitude and lack of training until the vet read him the riot act, complete with ultimatum.

What gave me a BIG clue about Guinness's behavior right here:
The dog was on the sofa next to her, and she was stroking his head.

The dog thinks he's equal. The kids are his *littermates*. He is treating them as such. He is vying for dominance.

Guinness isn't being provoked, an he doesn't seem to remember it after it happens. Chances are it's not that he doesn't remember it; it's that in his mind, he didn't do anything wrong. He's a DOG! He's play-fighting with a littermate.

Dogs are likely to assume children they live with are littermates unless *trained* to understand they are SUBORDINATE to ALL humans.

GET HIM TRAINED OUT OF THIS. NOW. And for God's sake, don't try to pass him on to someone else like this.

I'm sorry I know this sounds harsh. But really, I've reached the point where I do not understand why people do this. You put both children and the dog in jeopardy through ignorance. The first bite should have been taken MUCH more seriously.


ETA: As far as the possibility the dog is viewing children as littermates...where is the dog sleeping?

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

You said he's a Dobie mix; any idea what the rest of him is? If it's spaniel, this might be genetic; rage syndrome is a heritable problem in the entire spaniel family, cockers especially.

From someone who grew up around dobbies and rotties...

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

Go speak to a vet first. Thyroid tests especially. Also, how old is Guinness? Is he fixed? What other breed is he mixed with?

I would gladly give him a happy home down here with us if it came to it but I don't have the room or the money to afford to take on a baby with special needs. Also if it is just simply aggression, I can't risk my daugter, she's only 4 and doesn't always know her own strength.

[robeli.livejournal.com]

While I was reading the description of his behavior, I was already thinking of rage seizures (from my experience with sped kids).
Good luck and hugs.

[fallconsmate.livejournal.com]

my heart breaks for you, sweetie. *hugs* i dont have anything else to add to the discussion, i just know whatever happens, its going to be difficult on your whole family.

[puzzleoflight.livejournal.com]

It does sound like rage syndrome, yes. The disorientation is especially telling.

I'm not interested in starting an argument, but the Alpha/Omega thing mentioned above has pretty much been proved as bunk by most dog behaviorists. Rage syndrome is a genetic disorder and only found in certain breeds. If Guinness is suffering from it, he really isn't safe around children and may benefit from being moved to a different environment.

If you feel you can't keep him (and, much as you love him, I understand why you wouldn't), I would talk to a few doberman rescues and see if they're willing to take a dog that suffers from rage syndrome. He may not ever be able to be a family pet, but he might be able to be cared for by someone who knows the risks and is willing to accept that his behavior may be irrational.

[fragbert.livejournal.com]

I think this is what happened to my St. Bernard mix in 2006. I had to euthanize him.

[reliantfc3.livejournal.com]

Just *hug*

[popfiend.livejournal.com]

So very sorry.

Thoughts and prayers.

*HUG*

[datista.livejournal.com]

My first bit of advice is to send a full thyroid panel to HemoPet. It is expensive, but "rage syndrome" is more often "low threshold aggression" present from birth (Field dog lady here, I've seen lots of Cockers, Springers and a couple of Brittanies that would give a single, split second "hard look" as their only warning before launching an assault. There's a warning, it's just damned hard to see and react to before the dog's over threshold and latched on to your pants.)

Thyroiditis is an auto-immune issue that can lead to unprovoked aggression when the dog is stimulated (also has the disorientation and confusion after the hormone surge, at least for Star- he'd try to go lick the wounds he caused.) Again with the tiny, quick to pass over to aggression warning signals. Star will be playing like normal, then... his eyes just kind of get wider, his ears change position- not even pinned, just different, sometimes up, sometimes down- and while he just looks a little bit more wired, he's actually deeply uncomfortable and about to try to take a chunk out of someone. That's it. That's his only warning signal- his face is *slightly* tense. And then if he's pushed he unleashes all his fury (thankfully he's a 50 pound English Setter, his fury is rather... unfocused.)

Twice daily chewables have greatly increased his flexibility and tolerance, but the baseline problem is still there. Training could help but not fix the problem because while part of it was how we dealt with him, most of it has to do with internal chemistry. Mom loves him, so he'll live out his life with her (he's had this issue since he was 2 or 3, he's 9 now- but he's lived in an adults only household. Honestly, if Mom died in a car crash tomorrow, Star's ass would be in at the vet for the final time the next day. He's BETTER, and it's manageable but he's not WELL.)

Guinness is the right age- 2- to start seeing thyroiditis. Does he curl up like he's cold? Wake up grumpy? Those were Star's main signs other than biting. His TSH and T3 were normal, his T4 was low-normal, but his antibodies to his own thyroid hormones were off the charts. He never lost hair, never gained weight, just... the biting issues. If Guinness has a milder version of Thyroiditis, he might be able to get back to happy-go-lucky-land. Star's not exactly a posterpup for the disease.

Even if Guinness has Thyroiditis, and responds beautifully to treatment, I wouldn't trust him around children. I admire his bite inhibition (I, and all the other dogs in the house, have scars to prove Star has none), but I'd be calling Doberman rescue once I have a diagnosis and explaining he's not safe around children, needs daily medication, but you'd like to give him a chance with another home where he might live a long, happy life.

If it's low threshold aggression, not mediated by seizure medication or caused by Thyroiditis, I think you've already come to that unwelcome conclusion.

Wishing the best for all of you. I'm sorry there's no better answer than "run tests and see what they say."