On Guinness

[deza]

I don't think there's any question that I absolutely adore my pupperboy. Even when he's aggravating the hell out of me, he's still my furbaby. He is my constant companion and emotional support, particularly on the really bad days. I truly believe he's kept me out of the hospital, helping to regulate my body temperature when I've had some bad methotrexate reactions.

A few months ago, a young friend of ours came to visit Rowan for a week or so. While she was here, Guinness snapped at her. She wasn't hurt, thank heavens, and since I didn't see it I just assumed she'd somehow provoked it and left it at that. H, I'm sorry I didn't believe you.

When my friend Cat stopped byon her way home from the Frozen North, she started playing with Guinness. He was loving it, playing right along, all his body language in full PLAY mode - until he bit her three times in quick succession on the wrist. He didn't draw blood, but he did break skin and left some pretty severe bruising. Immediately afterward he was slightly disoriented, but ready to go right back to playing. Both Andrew and I saw this, and neither of us could have predicted it.

One afternoon Kyle and Guinness were laying in bed with me watching tv. This is actually pretty much a daily thing. Kyle drapes himself over Guinness, Guinness washes his face, and everyone is happy. Except for the one time Guinness snapped at Kyle instead of washing his face, leaving a faint bruise that stretched from his eye to the bottom of his ear. Again, Guinness seemed disoriented afterward, and went back to normal behavior as if nothing happened.

One of Rowan's friends was over a few weeks ago. She was sitting on the sofa watching tv - I didn't see this one, but Andrew was there. The dog was on the sofa next to her, and she was stroking his head. Again, something that's happened many times before. Guinness lunged for her, and Andrew blocked him. Thank heaven she wasn't hurt.

These things are happening without warning. Guinness isn't being provoked, an he doesn't seem to remember it after it happens. He's confused about why he's suddenly being punished. I spoke with a behaviorist about this. He said that just from what I was describing, it sounds like a form of epileptic seizure commonly called "rage syndrome." Medications may help control it, but there are no guarantees.

We'll take him to the vet of course, once Andrew has some time, but if the base vet determines Guinness to be a dangerous dog then he will recommend immediate euthanasia. No matter what, with a disorder like this he obviously can't be trusted to be my service dog. I'm not comofrtable trusting him around my kids, either. All it would take is hurting one neighborhood kid, and he'd be slated for immediate destruction - not to mention how civil amd moral liabilities for having a dangerous dog.

Dealing with this has not been good for me. I have enough drama without wrestling on whether or not we have to put down our much-loved family dog. Would nyone here care to adopt a very sweet Dobie mix, in the hopes that the meds will work? I think it would be best if he were in a home with dog people, and no parade of neighborhood kids visiting every day.

Comments

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

Oh no. How awful for you. Having faced a similar decision myself recently, my heart really goes out to you.

I'm so, so sorry for all of you, including Guinness.

[deza.livejournal.com]

*hugs* I feel like such a bad dogmommy for not being able to prevent it.

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

This is completely out of your control, but then, you already knew that. I cried for weeks over Lily because of her toileting problem. It was nothing that I did wrong and maybe if I didn't have all the children and hadn't been pregnant, maybe, just maybe, I could have fixed it, but it's unlikely and my husband wouldn't put up with the puddles any more (and to be honest, I wasn't massively happy with it either).

This is something which is just innate to him. It's part of who he is. And unfortunately, that means tough decisions. It's not your fault. It's not his. But that doesn't make it any easier.

[libwitch.livejournal.com]

I know with Dobies, a potential issue is that their skull vs brain size can actually be a problem, and that can cause moments of aggression, personality issues, etc. My father used to see it occasionally with otherwise wonderful dogs when he worked with them often. I hope that is not the case and you can reach a happy conclusion.

[deza.livejournal.com]

Yeah, home trepanning doesn't seem very practical. :( Do you happen to remember the name of the condition?

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

It's the same thing as in humans... encepholomegaly.

[leliel.livejournal.com]

That's a complete myth. Dobe brains DO NOT outgrow their skulls.

Sudden Rage Syndrome, however, while extremely rare is unfortunately very real.


@Deza: As always, unless the vet thinks he's completely beyond help, he always has a home here.

[norda.livejournal.com]

My heart hurts for all of you to read this.

Hoping for a happy outcome for Guinness, but I know this must be taering your insides.

[deza.livejournal.com]

*hugs* It is. It's been a large part of why I've been crying for the last two weeks.

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

Spot had a thyroid disorder that caused similar behavior. It was treatable with drugs. Is he losing any hair?

[deza.livejournal.com]

That's one of the the things I'll ask the vet about. His coat is great, though, thick and shiny, and his weight is good (~85 pounds; he's 30" at the withers).

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

Spot was losing "matched" patches of hair in splotches on both sides.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Find a trainer. NOW. Speak to your vet. IMMEDIATELY.

You made a big mistake: ignoring danger signs. Danger sign? Hell, huge red flag: he bit someone. You ignored it, figuring it was "provoked."

That was STUPID of you. Stupid and selfish. Bad owner, no cookie.

M, why do you think dogs generally bite? Provocation? Rage? Please tell me you're not one of those dog owners who thinks dogs are HUMAN, and think like human react out of the same stimuli that humans do.

I am NOT an animal behaviorist. However: I've had to deal with a dog behaving *exactly* as you describe Guinness here. Toward my daughter. You know what? The owner, who I was dating at the time, was a dumbass who assumed my daughter "provoked" the biting, and refused to accept that the issue was his dumbassitude and lack of training until the vet read him the riot act, complete with ultimatum.

What gave me a BIG clue about Guinness's behavior right here:
The dog was on the sofa next to her, and she was stroking his head.

The dog thinks he's equal. The kids are his *littermates*. He is treating them as such. He is vying for dominance.

Guinness isn't being provoked, an he doesn't seem to remember it after it happens. Chances are it's not that he doesn't remember it; it's that in his mind, he didn't do anything wrong. He's a DOG! He's play-fighting with a littermate.

Dogs are likely to assume children they live with are littermates unless *trained* to understand they are SUBORDINATE to ALL humans.

GET HIM TRAINED OUT OF THIS. NOW. And for God's sake, don't try to pass him on to someone else like this.

I'm sorry I know this sounds harsh. But really, I've reached the point where I do not understand why people do this. You put both children and the dog in jeopardy through ignorance. The first bite should have been taken MUCH more seriously.


ETA: As far as the possibility the dog is viewing children as littermates...where is the dog sleeping?

[deza.livejournal.com]

You're right, there are training issues. And I've addressed this from a training standpoint, including old tricks like having the kids spit in his food bowl before he eats. But the sad truth is, there is onlyso much I can do from flat on my back in bed, which is where I am most of the time now.

I did look at this as a dominance thing first. He does have some dominance issues. This isn't one of them; the behavior is different.

Regardless of which of us is right, though, it underscores that I'm incapable of giving him the home he needs. I can't be a strong enough owner for this dog, and Andrew's not here to pick up the slack.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Every single incident you've described involves two things: [1] a human who is not one of the two Alphas (that is you and Andrew) and except for the one incident, a *child* and [2] some level of play, or a context in which there is usually play.

You also say: One afternoon Kyle and Guinness were laying in bed with me watching tv. This is actually pretty much a daily thing. Kyle drapes himself over Guinness, Guinness washes his face, and everyone is happy. And he's used to sitting on the sofa next to humans.

You acknowledge Guinness has dominance issues. Yet you have him and the children in positions wherein he is *likely* as a dog to interpret them as littermates. Explain to me how this is unlikely to be part of a dominance issue. How do you think dogs act when they think children are their littermates, with whom they must vie for position?

This has escalated rather badly as he's bitten...what? four people? You're right: you can't handle this. But if you don't get him a trainer, his goose is cooked.

M, I'm sorry; I feel bad since I sort of went off on you about this. But I really DO feel this is a situation where dog owners should know better.

[deza.livejournal.com]

He's been to trainers. The first time he went ballistic on a gate guard was the day after he came home from a two-week stay with a trainer.

And honestly, this isn't a case of "Marna can't tell the difference from her ass and a hole in the ground." I've got over 20 years' experience working with dogs of ALL levels of pack personality. I really am capable of telling the difference between a dominance issue and somethings else, even when kids are involved.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Then re-home him and get it over with. You clearly can't keep this dog.

[deza.livejournal.com]

That's the point i'm reaching. Not happy about it, of course. Thing is, I won't let him to go to just anyone, because I don't want the problems recurring. He needs to go to a child-free household with dog owners who know what thery're doing with strong-willed, intelligent dogs. They need to be physically active (right now, Andrew takes Guinness for 2-3 mile jog in the evenings when he's in town) and highly affectionate. Other dogs are great, but small animals may be chased.

I love Guinness, and I want the best home for him. I'm in tears that the best home is not mine.

[blueingenue.livejournal.com]

Guiness knows he's subordinate to Kyle. Face-licking is a submission behavior.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Read this.

Just...read it.

[deza.livejournal.com]

That's been bookmarked on my computer while I've been trying to figure out what's going on. The part that scares me is the adsence-seizures mentioned at the end most closely match his behavior - the lights are on, but no one's home.

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

I often refer to my kids as the dog's littermates. She sleeps in a kennel, however--and gives them her belly when they come in...

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

It's fine to call them that but they can't actually BE her littermates. It's the first and supreme no-no. The dog is on bottom, and there is never any question that the dog is on bottom.

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

The dog is the brains of this outfit -- you do not ever see HER going to work to keep ME in spa days.

The dog, however, knows her place -- hence the readily offered belly. She would rather be little and spoiled than to struggle to become Alpha. That is a battle she cannot win.

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

That's not necessarily true, I was raised with dobbies and rotties. The pups saw me as their littermate and the bitches as their puppy. Aside from my parents not being able to discipline me around the dog (which is actually quite normal for females of ANY breed to do around children) we had two problems, one was thyroid and the other was rage syndrome. It is quite normal for a dog to view it's family as a pack and it's quite a bit healthier than the dog that it is subordinate to humans. The few times that I've seen dogs that are trained that way, it always came back to to bite the owners in the ass when it came time for the dog to protect the family, guess what it did. It rolled over and turned it's belly up to the person breaking in to their home.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

It is not ever acceptable for the dog to be ANYWHERE in the pecking order within the family than at the BOTTOM. And a dog can and will be fully protective of its humans and still understand it's the subordinate.

If you've got a dog doing this: The few times that I've seen dogs that are trained that way, it always came back to to bite the owners in the ass when it came time for the dog to protect the family, guess what it did. It rolled over and turned it's belly up to the person breaking in to their home. the issue is not dominance within the pack.

Jesus H. Christ.

[deza.livejournal.com]

I see where you're coming from, but rein it in a bit hon. It's possible to vehemently disagree without being insulting.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

Oh, OK. I'm done here anyway.

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong. The way I'm understanding what you're saying is that the dog is and should be treated as inferior to the rest of the family. Again perhaps it's me but to say that something belongs on the bottom is to say they're inferior and not as valuable.

[hotcoffeems.livejournal.com]

The way I'm understanding what you're saying is that the dog is and should be treated as inferior to the rest of the family. Again perhaps it's me but to say that something belongs on the bottom is to say they're inferior and not as valuable.

The dog is the Omega member of the pack. That means it's on the bottom. *All* of the humans in the household are superior members of the pack. This is how it needs to be. It has NOTHING to do with the dog being inferior. It has everything to do with the dog needing to know where it is in the hierarchy, and it is necessary for the safety of all concerned, including the dog, that this position be subordinate to every single human in the home. The dog is NOT a human and does not feel its self-esteem is somehow suffering because its ego is not being stroked because it's the bottom dog in the pack. This is really an unequivocal issue. If you don't have the dog at the bottom, you've got serious problems.

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

You said he's a Dobie mix; any idea what the rest of him is? If it's spaniel, this might be genetic; rage syndrome is a heritable problem in the entire spaniel family, cockers especially.

[deza.livejournal.com]

We have no idea. His mom was just barely preggers when she was adopted from the pound, so it could be anything. He's obviously taller than the Dobie standard, so I doubt it's spaniel. The trainer suggested either a small Great Dane or a Rhodesian Ridgeback.

From someone who grew up around dobbies and rotties...

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

Go speak to a vet first. Thyroid tests especially. Also, how old is Guinness? Is he fixed? What other breed is he mixed with?

I would gladly give him a happy home down here with us if it came to it but I don't have the room or the money to afford to take on a baby with special needs. Also if it is just simply aggression, I can't risk my daugter, she's only 4 and doesn't always know her own strength.

Re: From someone who grew up around dobbies and rotties...

[deza.livejournal.com]

He'll turn 2 next week. I got him neutered at 5 months to keep the dominance issues to a minimum; he still doesn't lift his leg when he pees. No idea on the mix, just that he's taller than the Dobie standard, and a little bit thicker through the head and brisket.

Re: From someone who grew up around dobbies and rotties...

[angelic-mystic.livejournal.com]

LOL... one of ours was the same way when he was fixed. He was also a rescue that knew something was wrong but didn't quite understand that his boy parts didn't work anymore.

[robeli.livejournal.com]

While I was reading the description of his behavior, I was already thinking of rage seizures (from my experience with sped kids).
Good luck and hugs.

[fallconsmate.livejournal.com]

my heart breaks for you, sweetie. *hugs* i dont have anything else to add to the discussion, i just know whatever happens, its going to be difficult on your whole family.

[puzzleoflight.livejournal.com]

It does sound like rage syndrome, yes. The disorientation is especially telling.

I'm not interested in starting an argument, but the Alpha/Omega thing mentioned above has pretty much been proved as bunk by most dog behaviorists. Rage syndrome is a genetic disorder and only found in certain breeds. If Guinness is suffering from it, he really isn't safe around children and may benefit from being moved to a different environment.

If you feel you can't keep him (and, much as you love him, I understand why you wouldn't), I would talk to a few doberman rescues and see if they're willing to take a dog that suffers from rage syndrome. He may not ever be able to be a family pet, but he might be able to be cared for by someone who knows the risks and is willing to accept that his behavior may be irrational.

[fragbert.livejournal.com]

I think this is what happened to my St. Bernard mix in 2006. I had to euthanize him.

[reliantfc3.livejournal.com]

Just *hug*

[popfiend.livejournal.com]

So very sorry.

Thoughts and prayers.

*HUG*

[datista.livejournal.com]

My first bit of advice is to send a full thyroid panel to HemoPet. It is expensive, but "rage syndrome" is more often "low threshold aggression" present from birth (Field dog lady here, I've seen lots of Cockers, Springers and a couple of Brittanies that would give a single, split second "hard look" as their only warning before launching an assault. There's a warning, it's just damned hard to see and react to before the dog's over threshold and latched on to your pants.)

Thyroiditis is an auto-immune issue that can lead to unprovoked aggression when the dog is stimulated (also has the disorientation and confusion after the hormone surge, at least for Star- he'd try to go lick the wounds he caused.) Again with the tiny, quick to pass over to aggression warning signals. Star will be playing like normal, then... his eyes just kind of get wider, his ears change position- not even pinned, just different, sometimes up, sometimes down- and while he just looks a little bit more wired, he's actually deeply uncomfortable and about to try to take a chunk out of someone. That's it. That's his only warning signal- his face is *slightly* tense. And then if he's pushed he unleashes all his fury (thankfully he's a 50 pound English Setter, his fury is rather... unfocused.)

Twice daily chewables have greatly increased his flexibility and tolerance, but the baseline problem is still there. Training could help but not fix the problem because while part of it was how we dealt with him, most of it has to do with internal chemistry. Mom loves him, so he'll live out his life with her (he's had this issue since he was 2 or 3, he's 9 now- but he's lived in an adults only household. Honestly, if Mom died in a car crash tomorrow, Star's ass would be in at the vet for the final time the next day. He's BETTER, and it's manageable but he's not WELL.)

Guinness is the right age- 2- to start seeing thyroiditis. Does he curl up like he's cold? Wake up grumpy? Those were Star's main signs other than biting. His TSH and T3 were normal, his T4 was low-normal, but his antibodies to his own thyroid hormones were off the charts. He never lost hair, never gained weight, just... the biting issues. If Guinness has a milder version of Thyroiditis, he might be able to get back to happy-go-lucky-land. Star's not exactly a posterpup for the disease.

Even if Guinness has Thyroiditis, and responds beautifully to treatment, I wouldn't trust him around children. I admire his bite inhibition (I, and all the other dogs in the house, have scars to prove Star has none), but I'd be calling Doberman rescue once I have a diagnosis and explaining he's not safe around children, needs daily medication, but you'd like to give him a chance with another home where he might live a long, happy life.

If it's low threshold aggression, not mediated by seizure medication or caused by Thyroiditis, I think you've already come to that unwelcome conclusion.

Wishing the best for all of you. I'm sorry there's no better answer than "run tests and see what they say."